Talk:Taiwanese Mandarin

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1 Move?
2 台灣國語 (Táiwān Guóyŭ) ?
3 Google hits
4 POJ
5 Explanation for the removal of the reference to the term bacon
6 Reason why "in print" (1st column) characters are different from Taiwanese Han (2nd column)
7 Blurring between n and l ?
8 basilect vs. acrolect
9 Loan words from Japanese
10 Explanation
11 loan words from English?
12 More pronunciation differences
13 Dialect or Accent

[edit] Move?

I think this should be moved to Taiwanese Mandarin--Confuzion 08:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 台灣國語 (Táiwān Guóyŭ) ?

Does the term "台灣國語" (Táiwān Guóyŭ, appears in the first paragraph of the article) really exist? It seems that the Republic of China referred to Standard Mandarin as "國語" (Guóyŭ) (See National language), but not "台灣國語" (Táiwān Guóyŭ). The latter term is often interpreted as "台灣國　語" (State of Taiwan, language) or "台灣　國語" (Taiwan, national language), which are biases towards the supporters of Taiwan independence. Apart from that, is "Mandarin on Taiwan" a better title that "Taiwanese Mandarin"? Because "Taiwanese" is another dialect in the Chinese language. - 169.231.1.116 20:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Please don't read "guoyu" literally. People don't. "Guoyu" in this context is simply meant to be a name for "Mandarin". The literal meaning is not relevant. I don't see a "bias towards the supporters of Taiwan independence" because Taiwan independence proponents want Taiwanese, not Mandarin, to be the national language. And "Taiwanese" here is used as an adjective so it cannot refer to the dialect of Min Nan, but rather the geographical place name (of Taiwan). --Jiang 02:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Jiang. The term "Taiwan Madarin" was firstly used for academic research, and it refers to the language spoken in Taiwan. Just like we say "American English（美式英語）" or "Singapore Chinese（新加坡華語）", we often use the name of location to stand for it.

Do 臺式國語 and 臺腔國語 exist? Would they be more logical and neutral? — Insta ntnood 21:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Jiang is right - this is not a NPOV issue. The term is recognised in Taiwan by blues and greens alike. Everyone on the island calls it 台灣國語, everyone knows what is meant by the term, so what's the problem? The national language of the Republic of China is 國語, the language as it is spoken by many on the streets is 台灣國語. Of course, how you then use the term can be political, as a pan-blue supporter might mock Chen Shui-Bian for his 台灣國語 (feeling it to be country-bumpkinish) or a pan-green might lambast James Soong for not using 台灣國語 (feeling that the absence of 台灣國語 renders him aloof and removed from the 'man on the street').

By the way, I did a quick straw poll (alright, it was only four people) and no-one had heard the term 臺式國語 or 臺腔國語. Not conclusive I admit, but they were surprised that anyone would want to find another name for 台灣國語. In fact, when I asked one friend he thought I'd got the Mandarin wrong and said 'oh no, you mean 台灣國語'... :)

The Chinese term is clear, widely known and it should not be changed. The English terms 'Taiwan Mandarin' or 'Taiwanese Mandarin' seem the best and clearest translation. I have seen 'Taiwan Mandarin' used in the English literature to refer to 台灣國語 but I think 'Taiwanese Mandarin' is just as accurate. I will attempt to track down some references in the near future to back this up. Taiwantaffy 15:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much Taiwantaffy. Nevertheless, if we were to be speculative, it's not really that surprising for pro-independence people to start saying 台灣國語 meaning the Min Nan language, or specifically the Taiwanese dialect. :-) — Insta ntnood 16:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Right, I've found some (scholarly) references to back up my point above; 1, 2, 3, 4. They all refer to the phenomenon as Taiwan Mandarin. I'll be reading these in depth over the coming days and adding more points and references to the article. Also, the Chinese-language Wikipedia article entitled 臺灣國語 is quite clear that the term does not refer to any putative 'Republic of Taiwan' national language, plus it provides plenty of references for the term 台灣國語 being used in Chinese language literature. So I really feel there is no need to change the Chinese term used in the article.

Furthermore, I think there is a case for renaming the article Taiwan Mandarin as this is the term used in the literature. We could add a redirect from Taiwanese Mandarin to Taiwan Mandarin. This is in accordance with Wikipedia policy to use the most common or well-known name for any given phenomenon. What does everyone feel about this? Taiwantaffy 02:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

"Taiwanese Mandarin" is more grammatical. On google, it is 865 vs. 958. It is used here: [1] [2]--Jiang 08:57, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the vocabulary section is not very accurate. Lots of people of Taiwan refer bikes as zixinche or dangche. You can't tell if somebody is from China or from Taiwan just by the way they refer bikes. I think a better example would be the way harddrive is referred, since in Taiwan it is called a yingdie and in china it's called yingpang. BlueShirts 18:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

does anyone know when mandarin became the official language of the media? I remember there were a lot of movies and television dramas from the 60s or 70s that were in Taiwanese entirely. Was there a policy change in the late 70s BlueShirts 22:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Good question, I'll see what info I can dig up. •

U|T|E 01:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I've had a quick look online and the only reference I can see towards a changing of attitudes in that period is the Presbyterian Church's assertion of the banning of romanized literature in 1975. This could have coincided with a more general restriction on Taiwanese being broadcast, but that is not clear. Plenty of other sites have vague statements like 'during KMT rule Taiwanese was suppressed', but there is not much about specific language policy during the KMT era. If I come across any other info I'll post it here. •

U|T|E 02:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah this is really weird. Some of the best early movies (60s) were in Taiwanese, with traditional Chinese subtitles of course. I think all too often we just hear blanket statements like the KMT banned the use of Taiwanese. I know it's banned in schools (along with all other dialects), but I'm not sure when the media ban started. BlueShirts 22:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

This article on Taiwanese movies is of interest. [3]BlueShirts 03:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Google hits

Defining language usage preferences between the PRC and Taiwan can be a messy art form. The Google hits are meant to help answer the question: "How common is the term __ in the PRC vs. Taiwan?" It is not a particularly sophisticated form of statistical analysis. However, it is quick and easy, and it gets across the general idea. I decided to put in the statistics because of an earlier dispute about the word for bicycle (腳踏車 jiǎotàchē vs. 自行車 zìxíngchē). While zìxíngchē is used in both the PRC and Taiwan, jiǎotàchē is used less outside of Taiwan. This is because jiǎotàchē originated from the Taiwanese word: kha-ta̍h-chhia. A-cai 08:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POJ

I decided to use POJ for all Taiwanese terms on the Taiwanese Mandarin page. POJ seems to be the most popular way to represent Taiwanese (Min Nan) on the internet. There is even a Taiwanese version of Wikipedia that is written in POJ. Here is a conversion chart for those out there who may have learned another system.

**Vowels**
IPA	a	ap	at	ak	aʔ	ã	ɔ	ɔk	ɔ̃	ə	o	e	ẽ	i	ɪɛn	iŋ
Pe̍h-ōe-jī	a	ap	at	ak	ah	aⁿ	o͘	ok	oⁿ	o	o	e	eⁿ	i	ian	eng
Revised TLPA	a	ap	at	ak	ah	aN	oo	ok	ooN	o	o	e	eN	i	ian	ing
TLPA	a	ap	at	ak	ah	ann	oo	ok	oonn	o	o	e	enn	i	ian	ing
Pumindian (普闽典)^{[dubious – discuss]}	a	ap	at	ak	ah	na	oo	ok	noo	o	o	e	ne	i	ien	ing
MLT	a	ab/ap	ad/at	ag/ak	aq/ah	va	o	og/ok	vo	ø	ø	e	ve	i	ien	eng
DT	a	āp/ap	āt/at	āk/ak	āh/ah	ann/aⁿ	o	ok	onn/oⁿ	or	or	e	enn/eⁿ	i	ian/en	ing
Taiwanese kana	アア	アプ	アッ	アク	アァ	アア	オオ	オク	オオ	オオ	ヲヲ	エエ	エエ	イイ	イェヌ	イェン
zhuyin	ㄚ	ㄚㆴ	ㄚㆵ	ㄚㆶ	ㄚㆷ	ㆩ	ㆦ	ㆦㆶ	ㆧ	ㄜ	ㄛ	ㆤ	ㆥ	ㄧ	ㄧㄢ	ㄧㄥ
example (traditional Chinese)	亞洲	壓力	警察	沃水	牛肉	三十	烏色	中國		澳洲	澳洲	下晡		醫學	鉛筆	英國
example (simplified Chinese)	亚洲	压力	警察	沃水	牛肉	三十	烏色	中国		澳洲	澳洲	下晡		医学	铅笔	英国

**Vowels**
IPA	ɪk	ĩ	ai	aĩ	au	am	ɔm	m̩	ɔŋ	ŋ̍	u	ua	ue	uai	uan	ɨ	(i)ũ
Pe̍h-ōe-jī	ek	iⁿ	ai	aiⁿ	au	am	om	m	ong	ng	u	oa	oe	oai	oan	i	(i)uⁿ
Revised TLPA	ik	iN	ai	aiN	au	am	om	m	ong	ng	u	ua	ue	uai	uan	ir	(i)uN
TLPA	ik	inn	ai	ainn	au	am	om	m	ong	ng	u	ua	ue	uai	uan	ir	(i)unn
Pumindian (普闽典)^{[dubious – discuss]}	ik	ni	ai	nai	au	am	om	m	ong	ng	u	ua	ue	uai	uan	i	n(i)u
MLT	eg/ek	vi	ai	vai	au	am	om	m	ong	ng	u	oa	oe	oai	oan	i	v(i)u
DT	ik	inn/iⁿ	ai	ainn/aiⁿ	au	am	om	m	ong	ng	u	ua	ue	uai	uan	i	(i)unn/uⁿ
Taiwanese kana	イェク	イイ	アイ	アイ	アウ	アム	オム	ム	オン	ン	ウウ	ヲア	ヲエ	ヲァイ	ヲァヌ	ウウ	ウウ
zhuyin	ㄧㆶ	ㆪ	ㄞ	ㆮ	ㆯ	ㆰ	ㆱ	ㆬ	ㆲ	ㆭ	ㄨ	ㄨㄚ	ㄨㆤ	ㄨㄞ	ㄨㄢ	ㆨ	ㆫ
example (traditional Chinese)	翻譯	病院	愛情		歐洲	暗時		阿姆	王梨	黃色	有無	歌曲	講話	奇怪	人員	豬肉	滔水
example (simplified Chinese)	翻译	病院	爱情		欧洲	暗时		阿姆	王梨	黄色	有无	歌曲	讲话	奇怪	人员	猪肉	滔水

**Consonants**
IPA	p	b	pʰ	m	t	tʰ	n	nŋ	l	k	ɡ	kʰ	h	tɕi	ʑi	tɕʰi	ɕi	ts	dz	tsʰ	s
Pe̍h-ōe-jī	p	b	ph	m	t	th	n	nng	l	k	g	kh	h	chi	ji	chhi	si	ch	j	chh	s
Revised TLPA	p	b	ph	m	t	th	n	nng	l	k	g	kh	h	zi	ji	ci	si	z	j	c	s
TLPA	p	b	ph	m	t	th	n	nng	l	k	g	kh	h	zi	ji	ci	si	z	j	c	s
Pumindian (普闽典)^{[dubious – discuss]}	b	bb	p	bb	d	t	n	lng	l	g	gg	k	h	zi	li	ci	si	z	l	c	s
MLT	p	b	ph	m	t	th	n	nng	l	k	g	kh	h	ci	ji	chi	si	z	j	zh	s
DT	b	bh	p	m	d	t	n	nng	l	g	gh	k	h	zi	r	ci	si	z	r	c	s
Taiwanese kana	パア	バア	パ̣ア	マア	タア	タ̣ア	ナア	ヌン	ラア	カア	ガア	カ̣ア	ハア	チイ	ジイ	チ̣イ	シイ	サア	ザア	サ̣ア	サア
zhuyin	ㄅ	ㆠ	ㄆ	ㄇ	ㄉ	ㄊ	ㄋ	ㄋㆭ	ㄌ	ㄍ	ㆣ	ㄎ	ㄏ	ㄐ	ㆢ	ㄑ	ㄒ	ㄗ	ㆡ	ㄘ	ㄙ
example (traditional Chinese)	報紙	閩南	普通	請問	豬肉	普通	過年	雞卵	樂觀	價值	牛奶	客廳	煩惱	支持	漢字	支持	是否	報紙	熱天	參加	司法
example (simplified Chinese)	报纸	闽南	普通	请问	猪肉	普通	过年	鸡卵	乐观	价值	牛奶	客厅	烦恼	支持	汉字	支持	是否	报纸	热天	参加	司法

**Tones**
IPA	a˥	a˥˧	a˨˩	ap˩ at˩ ak˩ aʔ˩	a˧˥	a˥˧	a˧	ap˥ at˥ ak˥ aʔ˥	a˥˥	a˨
Pe̍h-ōe-jī	a	á	à	ap at ak ah	â	á	ā	a̍p a̍t a̍k a̍h		--a
Revised TLPA TLPA	a1	a2	a3	ap4 at4 ak4 ah4	a5	a2 (6=2)	a7	ap8 at8 ak8 ah8	a9	a0
Pumindian (普闽典)	ā	ǎ	à	āp āt āk āh	á	ǎ	â	áp át ák áh
MLT	af	ar	ax	ab ad ag aq	aa	aar	a	ap at ak ah		~a
DT	a	à	â	āp āt āk āh	ǎ	ä	ā	ap at ak ah	á	å/aj
Taiwanese kana (normal vowels)	アア	アア	アア	アプアッアクアァ	アア	アア	アア	アプアッアクアァ
Taiwanese kana (nasal vowels)	アア	アア	アア	アプアッアクアァ	アア	アア	アア	アプアッアクアァ
zhuyin	ㄚ	ㄚˋ	ㄚᒻ	ㄚㆴ ㄚㆵ ㄚㆶ ㄚㆷ	ㄚˊ	ㄚˋ	ㄚ⊦	ㄚㆴ̇ ㄚㆵ̇ ㄚㆶ̇ ㄚㆷ̇
example (traditional Chinese)	公司	報紙	興趣	血壓警察中國牛肉	人員		草地	配合法律文學歇熱	社子	進去
example (simplified Chinese)	公司	报纸	兴趣	血压警察中国牛肉	人员		草地	配合法律文学歇热	社子	進去

Note: The bopomofo extended characters in the zhuyin row require a UTF-8 font capable of displaying Unicode values 31A0–31B7 (ex. Code2000 true type font).

A-cai 13:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation for the removal of the reference to the term bacon

If nobody objects, I have taken out the reference to "培根" (péigēn) vs. "煙肉" (yānròu). A quick search on Google reveals that "培根" (péigēn) is actually used far more in the PRC than the term "煙肉" (yānròu). Here are the results:

- 培根 Google hits: .cn
- 煙肉 Google hits: .cn

A-cai 03:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reason why "in print" (1st column) characters are different from Taiwanese Han (2nd column)

In the chart of loan words from Taiwanese, why are characters "As seen in print" are different from corresponding "Taiwanese Han" (column 2)? Also, it may be appropriate to add a note that in some cases the Taiwanese Han characters are not standardized. Oniows 14:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

- Very good questions.

Maybe "as seen in print" is confusing. I will try to explain in greater detail here, and then we can decide how to word-smith the article. If you were to read Chinese language newspapers and periodicals (as well as the Chinese subtitles to English language movies) in Taiwan on a regular basis (For example: The China Times or The Liberty Times), you are likely to notice the occasional use of a Taiwanese word. It is estimated that less than 70% of the people in Taiwan speak Taiwanese. Also, many Taiwanese speakers are not educated in Taiwanese as written with Chinese characters (台文, POJ: Tâi-bûn). Therefore, many publications elect to choose Chinese characters whose Mandarin pronunciation approximates the sound of the Taiwanese word. For example, the Chinese characters for the Taiwanese word tòng-bē-tiâu (can not bear something; compelled to do something) are 擋未住. However, if you were to pronounce the characters in Mandarin, it would be dǎng wèi zhù (which is an awkward construct in Mandarin and does not really match the sound of the Taiwanese word). However, if you say the characters 凍未條 in Mandarin really fast (Pinyin: dòng wèi tiáo), it sounds a little like the Taiwanese word. There are advantages and disadvantages to this approach. For one thing, 凍未條 makes no sense if you are trying to read the characters for meaning (凍: freeze 未: not yet 條: long narrow strip). On the other hand, the very fact that the characters are non-sensical indicates to many Taiwanese that they should be read for the sound, and not the meaning. If Taiwanese were a European language, we would probably use the word transliteration to describe this phenomenon. Sometimes, the transliterations can be rather humerous as in the case of tòng-soán (當選: to win an election); the characters chosen to represent the Taiwanese sound, 凍蒜 (Pinyin: dòng suàn), mean "frozen garlic" when taken literally.
Nearly all Chinese dialects struggle with this phenomenon. This brings me to your second point. There is a generally excepted way to depict most Taiwanese words with Chinese characters. This is particularly the case for common compounds (such as 語言 POJ: gú-giân, Pinyin: yŭyán). However, there is a lot of variation. This is something that is talked about (or should be) in the Min Nan and Taiwanese pages. I have primarily relied on two sources for column two:

In cases where multiple variations exist, I try to pick Chinese characters that tend to shed light on the etymological or phonetic origin of the word. For example, the Taiwanese word mài (don't) can be written in Chinese using either 莫 or 勿. I would tend to pick 莫 (Pinyin: mò) over 勿 (Pinyin: wù) because my gut tells me that 勿 was only adopted for use because its meaning matches the Taiwanese mài, whereas 莫 also appears to capture the original sound. A-cai 06:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blurring between n and l ?

the distinction between n and l is blurred

I removed the above line from the list of Taiwanese-influenced differences from Mandarin because it is innacurate or needs to be nuanced. Taiwanese language does make a distinction between the two phonemes n and l.

Thus, if there is indeed a blurring between the two sounds in Taiwan (and I don't know if there is; no example of it was given), it cannot be attributed to the lack of a corresponding Taiwanese sound; it should be listed in another category (such as: "influence of Taiwanese cognates", "other influences", or "later phonological shifts", if it were the case).

By the way, it has been noted elsewhere that such blurring is occurring in Cantonese, especially among younger speakers. But that is a Cantonese phenomenon. --HYC 03:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

- HYC is correct in pointing out that the Taiwanese language contains both l and n. It is also true that a portion of Taiwanese speakers of Mandarin have difficulty distinguishing between l and n. This usually stems from a lack of sufficient training in Standard Mandarin. Here is an illustration of the problem:

Chinese	Mandarin (Pinyin)	Taiwanese (POJ)	English
南	nán	lâm	south
藍	lán	nâ	blue

- For the above two words, n and l are swapped when moving from Taiwanese to Mandarin. This phenominon can occassionally lead to a "hybrid" Taiwanese-Mandarin pronunciation such as "lán" for south!

A-cai 10:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

In Mandarin dialects:

In some (especially southern) areas people do not distinguish between initial l- /l/ and n- /n/ sounds, and may merge them in some or all words, to either l- or n-. --Skyfiler 18:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] basilect vs. acrolect

I have taken a closer look at the Taiwanese influenced section. After reading the definitions for basilect and acrolect, I am not sure that this section accurately captures the situation in Taiwan. Bear in mind that my comments are not from the point of view of an expert in linguistics.

It seems to me that the part that talks about pronunciation differences between basilect and acrolect could better be described as the difference between a speaker of Standard Mandarin (which also de-emphasizes the retroflex "r" ending) and a native speaker of Min Nan who speaks Mandarin with a Min Nan accent. I will use two of Taiwan's most well known politicians to illustrate my meaning. Ma Ying-jeou is the current mayor of Taipei. His family came to Taiwan after 1949, he is not a fluent Min Nan speaker. Chen Shui-bian is the president of Taiwan. His ancestors moved to Taiwan from Fujian Province several hundred years ago. Chen is a native Min Nan speaker. Obviously, both of these men give frequent speeches in Mandarin. According to the description in the article, neither of the two should ever pronounce "fei" as "hui" in a formal speech. This is always true for Mayor Ma, but not often true for President Chen. The reason is not because President Chen forgets that he should use the acrolectal form when giving a formal speech. The man has a Min Nan accent!
The issue of zh-z, sh-s etc. is not confined to Taiwanese Mandarin. I would call this a feature of Mandarin as spoken in many parts of Southern China. Again, Mayor Ma's parents are from Hunan, but he often says "zeli" rather than "zheli" (here 這裡), even in formal settings (same is true for Lien Chan). On the other hand, I don't often hear him saying "suo" instead of "shuo" (speak 說). Of course, this is my subjective opinion. A speaker with a thick Beijing accent might mistake Mayor Ma's "sh" for an "s" for all I know.

I am writing this on the discussion page because the section in question was clearly written by a linguistics major. However, I do think my comments should be taken into consideration. Perhaps some of my observations could be worked into the wording.

A-cai 14:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

on the same theme, this link brief comparison of the accents of Chen Shui-bian (Taiwanese peasant background), Soong Chu-yu (Hunan mainlander background), and Lien Chan (Taiwanese aristocrat background): [4] --Jiang 05:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Loan words from Japanese

I'm not sure that some of the recent additions to the loan words are legitimate. I would say that 'Odobai' and 'Biru' are used almost exclusively in Holo (Taiwanese) and that any use in a Mandarin sentence would fall under code-switching rather than genuine loan words. Thus in my opinion they are loan words from Japanese into Taiwanese, not into Mandarin and so don't belong in this article. Perhaps another article could be created for loan words into Taiwanese? • U|T|E 05:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

In the end, I think it really comes down to where you draw the line between loan words and code-switching, the boundary is often quite fuzzy. As a student I've personally heard various Japanese terms from Holo slang either "Mandarinized" into normal Mandarin speech (sometimes to the point where they're pronounced using Mandarin, i.e. 霸咖/霸咖鴨摟, 頭拉褲), or could be considered in the same category as other Holo loanwords, with the exception that they were in turn loaned from Japanese. (As a side note it's taking me all of my self-restraint not to stick 阿魯巴 under English loanwords.) -Loren 05:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Further examples of transliteration to Mandarin (note that other character variations may exist):

* Obdobai -> 歐都拜

* Baka -> 霸咖

* Obasan -> 歐霸桑

* Odosan -> 歐豆桑

-Loren 06:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

What about word from classical chinese that loaned to japanese and then loan back? Notably 達人, since this term is always use in Classical Chinese prior to 20th century. Here is some references in Chinese:

達人

1.通達事理的人。《左傳·昭公七年》：“聖人有明德者，若不當世，其后必有達人。” 孔穎達疏：“謂知能通達之人。” 晉葛洪《抱朴子·行品》：“順通塞而一情，任性命而不滯者，達人也。” 明徐渭《自浦城進延平》詩：“循理稱達人，險難亦何慼。” 清葉廷琯《鷗陂漁話·莪州公詩》：“造物忌陰謀，達人務遠職。”

2.豁達豪放的人。《列子·楊朱》：“ 衛端木叔者，子貢之世也。藉其先貲，家累萬金，不治世故，放意所好…… 段干生聞之曰：‘ 端木叔達人也，德過其祖矣。’” 漢賈誼《鵩鳥賦》：“小智自私兮，賤彼貴我；達人大觀兮，物無不可。” 金孟宗獻《張仲山枝巢》詩：“達人孤高與世踈，百年直寄猶須臾。”

3.顯貴的人。唐楊炯《＜王勃集＞序》：“ 晉室南遷，家聲布於淮海；宋臣北徙，門德勝於河汾。宏材繼出，達人間峙。” 清侯方域《蹇千裡傳》：“ 千裡凡駑，其先世亦無達人，而能自緣飾，以詩賦顯，致位卿相，嗚呼，亦異矣！”

4.指韃靼。達，通“ 韃 ”。明余繼登《典故紀聞》卷十一：“ 正統初，吏部主事李賢言：‘竊見京師達人不下萬餘，較之畿民，三分之一。’” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.211.246.32 (talk) 03:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation

Jiang, please explain what's wrong with my edits?--Bonafide.hustla 06:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

what is your reason for removing "Taiwan Huayu"?
Mandarin links to a disambiguation page. The proper article is Mandarin (linguistics).
"is almost identical" --> "somewhat differs": This edit is not factually accurate. The standards are indeed almost identical. Whether people follow the standards is another issue, independent of this statement.
"However, Mandarin as spoken informally in Taiwan" --> "Mandarin spoken in Taiwan": The distinction needs to be made between documentary narrator-speak, news anchor-speak, and noodle-shop owner speak. There are clearly differences between formal and informal levels of Mandarin
"Also Taiwan does not use the pin-yin system and write in traditional characters as opposed to the PRC.": What does this have to do with Mandarin, which is a spoken language? Taiwan does use the Hanyu Pinyin system, in street signs such as those in Taipei, and in Chinese language schools geared towards non-locals.
"Mainlanders" --> "post-1949 immigrants": used in context, the term "mainlanders" is unambiguous in referring to waishengren. --Jiang 08:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] loan words from English?

I was considering adding a section that deals with English proper nouns. Common examples include:

Taiwan	PRC	English
雷根	里根	Reagan
布希	布什	(George W.) Bush
奧克拉荷馬州	俄克拉何马州	Oklahoma

I can't decide if it's overkill or worth the effort. Opinions? -- A-cai (talk) 13:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you could start a new article called something like List of proper names translated differently between Taiwanese Mandarin and Mainland Mandarin. That particular one could be too long, though, and I don't know if it's appropriate or not. The idea is nevertheless really good. 石川 (talk) 15:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I would take part in adding words to this list, if someone becomes interested again. Noteably: 巴拉克·奥巴马 Bālākè Àobāmǎ (mainland), in Taiwan the new US President's last name is written and pronounced as 歐巴馬 Ōubāmǎ. Even Chinese Wikipedia uses both, very confusing. Hopefully, with growing cross-straight ties there will be more communication and hopefully less such cases. --Anatoli (talk) 23:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Transcription of names are not loanwords. Having multiple transcriptions of a name is not something special. There are multiple ways to write "Mao Zedong" in English, too. --Voidvector (talk) 04:48, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

It is special enough for a small section or a paragraph describing possibilities of different modern standard transcriptions of the same name in mainland China and Taiwan. This feature also makes 2 versions of Mandarin a little different. For learners it may be of interest to know some major names of people, countries or cities. A comprehensive list is not worth the effort, of course. --Anatoli (talk) 12:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I would support a separate section noting such phenomenon, because names are generally not considered loanwords. Section can mention other aspects as well, such as movie titles (e.g. some are translated literally, some are given a whole new name). --Voidvector (talk) 22:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] More pronunciation differences

I really think there ought to be more emphasis on the differences in pronunciation. It should contain not just differences of certain words, and differences where it is close to Min-nan accent, but more subtle and general ones. For instance, according to the Standard Mandarin article, there is this phoneme /ɤ/, but it is often realized as /ə/ from my experience.

Another striking difference is the final /ɤŋ/: when preceded by "b, p, m, f", it is almost never pronounced that way, but instead as /ɔŋ/ or /oŋ/. The same goes for /uɤŋ/ ([ʊŋ] with initials) being pronounced /uɔŋ/ or /uoŋ/ ([ɔŋ] or [oŋ] with initials).

Also, after certain vowels like /i/ or /ə/, /n/ and /ŋ/ are identical, both in realization and in perception. This is particularly evident in cases where people writing online often mistype 因該 when it should be 應該. Relatively fewer people even have trouble distinguishing betwenn /an/ and /ɑŋ/.

Of course, these are not linguistic observations, and I don't know if these phenomenons are really "differences", but in either case it would be worthwhile to include the information in either this article or Standard Mandarin.

石川 (talk) 15:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dialect or Accent

I found that this article refers to Mandarin spoken in Taiwan which in Chinese is only 國語. Because it's brought from mainland China by the KMT, and before that Taiwanese are used to speak Taiwanese and then are forced to speak Chinese only, they had a strong accent, which is called 台灣國語. So this title Taiwan Mandarin seems to be a translation of 台灣國語, which only means the accent of the RC version of Mandarin. Therefore there are also words different to PRC Mandarin. A close look to the Chinese article of 台灣國語 shows in the first few sentences, that it is called an accent. (I mean the article zh:台灣國語, which is recently linked with another article: zh:中華民國國語文) What I suggest now is, to rename this article, because 台灣國語 means only the accent of 中華民國國語文. This article is the same with the zh.wiki's 中華民國國語文. And I would volunteer to write a new article with some others about the accent "Taiwanese Mandarin". 快樂龍 15:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I just found, that zh:國語 (中華民國) redirecs to 中華民國國語文. 快樂龍 15:13, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

If there is no appeal, I'm gonna move this article to Guoyu (Republic China), link that on Guoyu and write a stub on Taiwanese Mandarin at first. 快樂龍 03:48, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Not a good idea, at the first glance. So Chinese has only one article and a redirect? "Taiwanese Mandarin" is a more common term in English. Accents and other features can be described in one article. Unlike "Putonghua", "Guoyu" is hardly used in English. Anatoli (talk) 04:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I can understand, if at first there is no need for an article for a accent, but to mix 國語 with 台灣國語 is definetely wrong. This article describes 國語, while 台灣國語 is that accent. So 台灣國語 is Taiwan Mandarin, and 國語 is Guoyu (Republic China). 快樂龍 07:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Guoyu (國語) is addressed in Standard Mandarin. This article is about the dialect of Taiwanese Mandarin: the Mandarin with Taiwanese usage and accent (台灣式的國語或普通話).--pyl (talk) 12:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we agree that 國語 is Mandarin. But wen you talk about an dialect (方言), then you say that 台語/民南話, 四川話 or 香港話 are some examples. But no one in Taiwan or Mainland would say, that 台灣國語 is an accent. It is an dialect resulting from mother tongues of 民南話 start to learn 國語. Just the same was when a Italian starts to speak English for the first time. 快樂龍 14:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

No.

accent = 腔調 or 口音
dialect = 方言

I think you got the Chinese translations wrong.

台語/閩南話, 四川話 or 香港話 are languages (語言), or to other people, dialects (方言).

Taiwanese Mandarin (台灣式的國語) is a dialect (方言) of Standard Mandarin (國語).

The analogy between Italian and English is unsound, as Min Nan Chinese and Mandarin Chinese share the same set of written characters and the grammar (文法) is extremely similar. The main difference is the pronunciation of the characters. However, Italian and English don't share the same alphabets and they have very different grammar.

And there is no such thing as "民南話". It is a made up term and it doesn't mean anything. The correct term is "閩南話", meaning the language of Southern Min (Fujian).--pyl (talk) 06:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I had one typo. I'm aware that a dialect is 方言. I corrected it above.

Then just take an example on German and Flamish. Grammar and words are very similar, the point is the pronunciation. When I said an Italian learning English I also mean, that his pronunciation will probably not proper at the benginning (next to grammar and vocs).

Why do you think 台灣國語 is a dialect? If you ever have been to Taiwan and ask anybody what 台灣國語 is, then everybody will tell you, it's an accent. If you even say to someone, that he speaks 台灣國語, then he might be angry and say, that his 中文 or 國語 is very proper instead.

Another thing is just the zh.wiki article zh:台灣國語. I found this: 台灣國語是在台灣流行的一個戲謔名詞，指帶有強烈閩南語口音及用法的現代標準漢語。 It just says: 台灣國語 is a modern joke name and means a strong accent of 閩南語 while speaking 現代標準漢語. 快樂龍 10:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that the term "Taiwanese Mandarin" will be taken by the average native English speaker generally to mean the various strains of Mandarin that are used by people living in Taiwan. I think that this accurately describes the intent of the English article. Similarly, we have articles for American English and British English. The debate about whether to call anything a language, dialect or accent is frought with difficulties because these are imprecise terms (see: A language is a dialect with an army and navy). -- A-cai (talk) 12:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent for easier reading)

I am aware of the Taiwanese Mandarin usage. Mandarin and Taiwanese are my native languages (you might already be aware of that from my user page).

Yes, the term "Taiwanese Mandarin" can be a derogatory term and I had this conversation with Readin earlier about this when she wanted to put "Taiwanese Mandarin" as the official language of the Republic of China. The official language of the ROC is Standard Mandarin. I wouldn't want to be described as a person who speaks Taiwanese Mandarin myself. There is nothing wrong with having a Taiwanese accent when Mandarin is spoken, but the derogatory meaning of the term is not flattering.

Taiwanese Mandarin is more than just a localised accent. There is no doubt that the Taiwanese accent is different from Beijing or Shanghai accent when Mandarin is spoken. But Taiwanese Mandarin also has localised usages which are not part of the mainland usage. The examples are "計程車", "龜毛" or "鬱卒". By having localised accent and usuage from Standard Mandarin, it makes Taiwanese Mandarin a dialect of Mandarin.

I agree with A-cai. That's exactly what "Taiwanese Mandarin" means in this article. Using your words, it means the Taiwan localised version (地方語言 "方言") of the many strains of Mandarin. This article is not about the ROC regulated version of Standard Mandarin, as that is covered in the Standard Mandarin article itself.--pyl (talk) 13:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

That is the reason, why I'm a bit astonished. I also speak with that accent and whenever I heard someone being told, that she/he speaks 台灣國語, it was always kind of a blaming or a joke. Whenever I asked other Taiwanese or Mainlanders about 台灣國語, they say it is an accent. Even zh.wiki says that.

Your point about those words, which are only used in Taiwan, is right. But I think you can compare that with e.g. Chinglish, Singlish, Denglisch etc. They also have little differences in grammar and usage of words. That doesn't make them an dialect yet.

My words are, that this article should describe an accent, ROC regulated version of Standard Mandarin is already described in Standard Mandarin快樂龍 13:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Chinglish, Singlish, Denglisch are considered to be dialects of the English language, just like Taiwanese Mandarin is a dialect of the Mandarin Chinese language.

The thing is, terms like "龜毛" or "鬱卒" are not part of ROC regulated version of Standard Mandarin. You won't see them in textbooks. They are informal terms only used in Taiwan as part of Taiwanese Mandarin. So if you want to change this article to do what you are proposing, then we have to remove all those informal terms that are not part of Standard Mandarin.

If you like, you can add the ROC regulated Standard Madarin terms like "計程車" (出租車 for PRC) or "雷射" (激光 for PRC) in a separate section of the Standard Mandarin article, as these are proper Standard Mandarin terms used by the ROC government.--pyl (talk) 14:14, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, if you think it is appropraite, we can call Taiwanese Mandarin a Creole of Standard Mandarin. Check Singlish article. --pyl (talk) 14:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the term "variant" or "strain" would be more appropriate. The term "creole" may confuse some readers. Also, recognize that non-standard use of any language may be subject to ridicule by users of the "standard language." In the United States, speakers of Southern American English are often victims of a stereotype that associates that dialect with rednecks. -- A-cai (talk) 14:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Just like in Taiwan, the speakers of Taiwanese Mandarin are often considered to be rednecks too.

I think "variant" or "strait" is fine too.--pyl (talk) 14:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

No, you misunderstand me. As they are part of it, they have to be listed as in those other three articles. Chinglish etc. are no accents. If you search through those articles, then you'll find it's nowhere written that they are accents. About creole I'm not sure yet. I would like to check that first. Variant and strain would indicate, that it is a language.

What I propose is, that we just change the introduction, the interpretation of it. And call it an accent or maybe an creole. Just as zh.wiki does. 快樂龍 —Preceding undated comment added 15:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC).

The terms "variant," "variety," "dialect" and "strain" do not imply anything about whether "Taiwanese Mandarin" and Standard Mandarin are mutually intelligible. African American Vernacular English is described appropriately as a variety of American English. In general, African American Vernacular English (with the exception of its most extreme forms) can be understood by a speaker of Standard American English. Similarly, California English is described as a "dialect" of the English language. Again, California English can be easily understood by a speaker of British English, despite diferences of vocabulary and pronunciation. In general, the term "accent" refers to variations within the same mutually intelligible language ("accent" usually only describes features of pronunciation. It is not generally used to describe vocabulary diferences). -- A-cai (talk) 16:22, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The example of African American Vernacular English is very striking. I would suggest the term variety, because even if dialect doesn't imply that Taiwanese Mandarin and Standard Mandarin are mutually intelligle, e.g. Taiwanese is also described as an accent, but to be categorized different than Taiwanese Mandarin. I see know, that the Chinese word for accent is misleading in this categorisation and not suitable, different to its Chinese categorisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuaile Long (talk • contribs) 16:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Taiwanese Mandarin

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Contents

[edit] Move?

[edit] 台灣國語 (Táiwān Guóyŭ) ?

[edit] Google hits

[edit] POJ

[edit] Explanation for the removal of the reference to the term bacon

[edit] Reason why "in print" (1st column) characters are different from Taiwanese Han (2nd column)

[edit] Blurring between n and l ?

[edit] basilect vs. acrolect

[edit] Loan words from Japanese

[edit] Explanation

[edit] loan words from English?

[edit] More pronunciation differences

[edit] Dialect or Accent

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