Template talk:Nazism sidebar

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Nazism and socialism - discuss and vote on which page text should appear 2 A little too long? 3 Name change? 4 Horizontal Box 5 Collapsable sections 6 Color 6.1 Colour revisited

[edit] Nazism and socialism - discuss and vote on which page text should appear

Discussions of the relationship between Fascism and socialism and Nazism and socialism keep appearing on multiple pages. On what page does the section on Nazism and socialism belong?

Fascism and ideology---Nazism in relation to other concepts---Fascism and socialism---Nazism and socialism

Please discuss and vote on this dispute at this talk page]. Thanks. --Cberlet 15:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A little too long?

Is it just me or has this template grown to an excessively large size? Perhaps it would be time to remove some of the less relevant articles from it. -- Nikodemos 09:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name change?

What is the issue with Vision Thing renaming this template? See: [1]. There has been no discussion of this, and it appears to be part of an idiosyncratic POV campaign. Any comments? I am reverting pending discussion.--Cberlet 19:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. He's just trying to tie together two unrelated things to promote his POV. The Nazis were economically corporatist and hated the socialists, who were also among their biggest critics. Sarge Baldy 22:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Horizontal Box

The vertical box has become to long I suggest we make it horizontal at this point. Inevitably, it will only grow longer. LindaWarheads 13:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

What about making parts of it collapsible? (i.e. like Template:Korean's "show" button?) --Fastfission 01:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is a very ugly first attempt by someone who doesn't quite understand how this works:

Part of the Politics series on Nazism

Nazi organizations National Socialist German Workers' Party Sturmabteilung Schutzstaffel Hitler Youth Lebensborn

Nazism in history Early Nazi Timeline Hitler's rise to power Nazi Germany Night of the Long Knives Nuremberg Rallies Kristallnacht The Holocaust Nuremberg Trials Ex-Nazis and Neo-Nazism

Nazi concepts Glossary of the Third Reich Hitler's political beliefs Gleichschaltung Racial policy of Nazi Germany Führerprinzip Lebensraum Positive Christianity Volk

Nazi political parties and movements outside Germany Canadian National Socialist Unity Party German-American Bund Nasjonal Samling Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging National Socialist Bloc National Socialist League

Nazi Eugenics Nazi eugenics Aryan race Doctors' Trial German Blood Certificate Lebensborn Life unworthy of life Mischling Nazi physicians Nazi human experimentation Nazism and race Nordic theory Nur für Deutsche Nuremberg Trials Racial policy of Nazi Germany Racial purity Reich Citizenship Law Scientific racism T-4 Euthanasia Program

Related subjects Nazism and religion Nazi mysticism Nazi architecture Hitler salute Mein Kampf Swastika Völkisch movement Anti-Semitism Führer Neo-Nazism Fascism

Relevant lists Nazi Party leaders and officials Fascists Adolf Hitler books Adolf Hitler speeches SS members Living Nazis Former Nazis influential after 1945

Politics Portal   v • d • e

It's not quite there but you can't deny it uses space efficiently! --Fastfission 01:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I say we just cut down on the articles in the list. This happens with every navigation template every once in a while: people keep adding their favourite articles to it, even when they are not particularly important, until the template must be reduced in size.

For example, instead of having a whole list of Nazi eugenics articles, we could have a single link pointing to one article or list. -- Nikodemos 02:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, but where to draw the line? --Fastfission 19:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the way we draw the line with most templates is by consensus of the editors working on those templates... We should use the same approach here. -- Nikodemos 02:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Make Horizontal: I think a horizontal box, at the bottom of articles is better, long-term:

• Growing vertical-boxes can upset formatting of previous articles with images;
• More Nazi-related articles arrive due to notability (Nazis started WWII);
• Cleanup is rare/unpleasant: Nazi topics are unpleasant to rewrite/condense;
• Anti-Semitism was rampant, prompting more articles, rather than cleanup;
• White supremacy links Nazism before 1912: 4 original decades of articles;

I suspect the Nazi articles will grow, like important computer software with "creeping featurism" addressing a larger user-base, so a horizontal, bottom-template allows for future growth without impacting the future vertical format of the growing list of Nazi articles. -Wikid77 14:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Well, it's been nearly a year and still no movement on the template. For the record, I favour the collapsible box as above. It's been implemented to good effect with the Anarchism template and looks pretty promising to me. I'm going to add the newly-created Esoteric Nazism article to the template but I'm going to compensate by removing the Völkisch movement article which has no place in the Nazism category. The völkisch movement spanned the political spectrum and if it had some input into Nazism, it also influenced anarchism and the Social Democrats. Gnostrat 21:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I have a problem with this new template, mainly that it just doesn't look right compared to most of the side templates. This template is strange compared to most templates, and is consistant with few other sidebar templates on wikipedia. It would be better just to revert back to the original template if not for asteatics, than for consistency. Yahel Guhan 01:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

before I restore the old box, can the supporters of this box change explain their reasons and respond to my above comment? Yahel Guhan 00:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It's more concise, saves a lot of space on articles, and it's simply better. I think we should do this on all boxes. — EliasAlucard|Talk 12:22 09 Oct, 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the old template looked much better, and made the links much easier to access. It's smaller, but why does that matter? It isn't like the articles are overcrowded or anything. Yahel Guhan 03:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Current template takes too much space. Other templates are not the issue, and anyway, most people seem to think that new box is an improvement. -- Vision Thing -- 18:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

In what article? Most of the articles have plenty of spece to spare the template. Other templates are an issue, because wikipedia should be consistent throughout. As for the "most people" arguement, wikipedia is not a democracy. Yahel Guhan 03:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It would be helpful to have a show all button, though. Zara1709 10:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with that. A show all button would be perfect. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:10 11 Oct, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Collapsable sections

There has been considerable discussion on the issue of the collapsable sections of templates like this, such as {{Social democracy sidebar}}, {{Christian Democracy sidebar}} etc. I created a centralized place for discussion about this issue here. I invite every one to participate. C mon (talk) 18:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Color

Since when is "papayawhip" associated with Nazism :)? I think everyone is more used to seeing the red National Socialist flag on the grey or black background. Grey is likely the first color associated with the Greater German Reich. Why are we using light orange? Frankly, its a little "squeamish" for such a heavy subject... Also, I don't think the color of the image (which also contains black) should dictate the color of the template. (P.S. Halo rules!) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 11:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I've changed the color to dark red. I don't think grey is that representative of Nazi Germany. I'd rather have the template blend in with the color of the flag - just because of aesthetic reasons. --UNSC Trooper (talk) 13:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Why should the image dictate the color of the template? German soldiers wore grey uniforms. Where blue would be French, red would be British, yellow Spanish etc., grey is generally the color of the German Reich (imperial Germany and Hitler's Germany). In this version it looks like the the communism sidebar or something. The German swastika used black, white and red because all those were the colors of (imperial) Germany. Why should red (or orange), of all colors, be predominant here when it is a symbol of Nazism's antipod, communism? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, I wonder if you could explain why the Nazism sidebar is wider than the Fascism sidebar? We should try to standardize the size of politics series templates. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:54, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Soviet soldiers wore grey uniforms as well. Does the mean the Communism template has to be grey? No - it was red (now it's just white) because the Soviet flag was red and yellow. I think the same should be applied to the Nazism template, too. Or we could combine white, black and red. And I think we should just leave the size of the templates the way they were before: 18 - 20 em. --UNSC Trooper (talk) 15:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I just mentioned the uniforms as an example, and anyway we're talking about Nazi Germany, not the USSR (which used the color red extensively in their uniforms). It is obviously general knowledge that the primarily used (imperial) German color was grey. The color of communism is red. This is why the flag of the USSR was red, and hence the name "Red Army". The red color is generally viewed the symbol of communism (and the far-left), certainly not as a symobol of Nazism. Nazism, fascism (and sometimes the far-right in general) are usually associated with grey (or black, "blackshirts", etc...). It is a lot less symbolic if we use red, of all colors, to represent Nazism. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 16:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

While the communist Soviet military certainly used red on their medals, patches, symbols, etc. the uniform itself was grey. But that's not the point - I used dark red simply because the template would blend in with the flag. Anarchism is most often represented through red and black, but the sidebar is all white. The color of certain ideologies need not represent the template; when you read an article on Wikipedia, you'd expect a pleasant format, not a brightly colored or dark format. However, we could experiment with complete black on the Nazism template and see how it looks. Regarding the size issue, just edit one of the templates to 18 or 20 em so that they're both the same size. --UNSC Trooper (talk) 17:22, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The Soviet uniform was never grey. It was mainly green, beige, or brown. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

As you say, black is ok, but its a little too "flashy". That's why I used grey... I still prefer that version, your thoughts? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:52, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Grey is what the Fascism and Neo-Fascism sidebars use. We should make Nazism a bit different, so black would be preferable. --UNSC Trooper (talk) 18:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The Fascism sidebar uses very, very dark grey (almost black, in fact), its significantly different from the light gray I was proposing. That light gray is more distinct from the fascism sidebar than full black. But never mind... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 23:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Colour revisited

Nazism

Flag of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (1920–1945) and of the German Reich (1933–1945)

Organizations National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP) Sturmabteilung (SA) Schutzstaffel (SS) Hitler Youth (HJ) NSRL

History Early timeline Hitler's rise to power German re-armament Nazi Germany Religion in Nazi Germany Night of the Long Knives Nuremberg Rallies Kristallnacht The Holocaust Nuremberg Trials Ex-Nazis · Neo-Nazism

Ideology (non-racial) Heim ins Reich Gleichschaltung Hitler's political beliefs National Socialist Program Third Position Religious aspects Propaganda Architecture Mein Kampf

Racial ideology Racial policy of Nazi Germany Blood and soil Nazi eugenics Doctors' Trial Nazi physicians Human experimentation Nuremberg Trials

Beyond Germany Canadian National Socialist Unity Party German American Bund American Nazi Party National Socialist Movement (US) Hungarian National Socialist Party Arrow Cross Party (Hungary) Nasjonal Samling (Norway) Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging (Netherlands) National Socialist Bloc (Sweden) National Movement of Switzerland (NBS) National Socialist League (UK) National Socialist Workers’ Party of Denmark Ossewabrandwag (South Africa) Ustaša - Croatian Revolutionary Movement (Independent State of Croatia)

Lists Nazi Party leaders and officials Books by or about Adolf Hitler Nazi ideologues Speeches given by Adolf Hitler SS personnel Living Nazis Former Nazis influential after 1945

Related topics Glossary of Nazi Germany Neo-Nazism Esoteric Nazism Völkisch movement

Politics portal

v • d • e

Would it be possible to sample consensus on making the colour grey? Or at least a less intensive black? It is so black that it almost looks like a graphical display error on the screen; sucks attention away from the article; and becomes a bit of an ugly eyesore. Any chance on re-establishing consensus now it has been black for a while? SGGH ^ping! 22:24, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the full black doesn't look good... How's this? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 02:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

This light grey layout is way too... "moderate," for such an extreme regime. Like I said before, the Fascism templates use grey. I still think full black is a much better option for Nazism. --UNSC Trooper (talk) 10:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

The fascism template uses black, just a shade lighter to avoid being "pitch black" like a graphical display error (it used to be "pitch black", but I lightened it up just for a slight nuance). And that not for long, apparently (see template). This shade of grey is less similar to the fascism template's black than the total black we now have on. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 11:16, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

This talk about colors is really unproductive, if you ask me. Nazism is more radical than fascism, therefore, it'd need a more dramatic look. Pitch black seems right for it. Grey would fit fascism because it provides both a dramatic appearance (as fascism, itself, was dramatic) and a relative distance from Nazism's pitch black. Or just make them both black and move on with other things. --UNSC Trooper (talk) 12:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, one may argue that National-Socialism considered itself "less right-wing" than fascism, in that it was anti-monarchist and incorporated elements of socialism ("workers' party"). Fascism would be the really hard-core right wing. The Nazis, on the other hand, despite having a more negative reputation due to their racial extermination agenda, were in fact more to the left than Mussolini. Propaganda in the Soviet Union avoided using the term "Nazis" and (incorrectly) called the invaders "fascists" because of the NSDAP's socialist inclinations. The left wing of the NSDAP was rather effective at times. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to Nazism's political position in relation to fascism, rather its practices. Did Mussolini dedicate his country's forces to mass extermination of national minorities, disabled people, or Jews? None of the other European, South American, or Japanese fascist movements (which, in my opinion, should be considered truly fascist compared to Nazism) engaged in overly imperialistic and criminal actions. Fascism wasn't enough for Hitler; that's why fascism is sometimes viewed as being different than Nazism. I should also point out that there are significant differences between fascism and right-wing extremism, such as fascism's revolutionary element. So the two terms are not interchangeable. Also; while Nazism was indeed inclined towards socialism, the Night of the Long Knives had completely crushed the NSDAP's left-wing, thereby paving the way for a rightward drift. All in all, I believe Nazism is far more radical than fascism in many ways. --UNSC Trooper (talk) 16:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Sooo... you think the color should be darker not in relation to the political affiliation of the regime, but in relation to how murderous it was? Well, if that were the case, the communism sidebar would have a lot farker shade :), because of Stalin's regime. I can't say I agree, the color of the right-wing, particularly of the fascists, is (usually) black, the color of the left is (usually) red. Since fascism was more to the right than Nazism it stands to reason it will have the darker color. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)