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Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

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Read this before proposing new criteria

Contributors frequently propose new criteria for speedy deletion. Please bear in mind that CSD criteria need to be very carefully worded, and in particular, need to be:

  1. Objective: most reasonable people should be able to agree whether an article meets the criterion. Often this requires making the criterion very specific.
  2. Uncontestable: it must be the case that almost all articles that could be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to general consensus. CSD criteria should only cover situations where there is a strong precedent for deletion. Don't forget that a rule may be used in a way you don't expect if not carefully worded.
  3. Frequent: speedy deletion is intended primarily as a means of reducing load on other deletion methods such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion and Wikipedia:Proposed deletion. These processes are more discerning because they treat articles on a case-by-case basis and incorporate many viewpoints; CSD sacrifices these advantages for speed and efficiency. If a situation arises only rarely, it's probably easier, simpler, and fairer to delete it via one of these other methods instead. This also keeps CSD as simple and easy to remember as possible, and avoids instruction creep.
  4. Nonredundant: if the deletion can be accomplished using a reasonable interpretation of an existing rule, just use that. If this application of that rule is contested, consider discussing and/or clarifying it. New rules should only be proposed to cover situations that cannot be speedy deleted otherwise.
If you do have a proposal that you believe passes these guidelines, please feel free to propose it on this discussion page. Be prepared to offer evidence of these points and to refine your criterion if necessary. Consider explaining how it meets these criteria when you propose it. Do not, on the other hand, add it unilaterally to the CSD page.
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[edit] User:Anuarhabibe/Ascii fish

I hope Calton will weigh in on this one. He tagged it as db-spam and I agreed, but I think some of you will probably disagree and I'd like to hear the arguments, please. This was the only contribution by this editor, and it read: "Ascii Fish, The Netherlands is an web development company which operates in The Netherlands, The Antilles and Aruba. Ascii Fish (or AsciiFish) is a small business company founded in 2009. The company's core business areas are web services, multimedia & graphic designs and Web project consulting." Apparently they're right about the size of the business; there wasn't even a Google hit on "ascii fish" "netherlands", and no news archive hits on "ascii fish" or "asciifish". The argument that this wasn't db-spam, I think, is that the language wasn't so promotional that it could have only come from one of the principals, or from someone using language that one of the principals would use. But it seems to me that's a technical argument; a better question to ask is: was it very likely to be one of the principles, someone who was only here to promote their stuff and not make any useful contributions to Wikipedia? I think that seems very likely: a company so small that no one seems to have heard of it, a business that's about "web development" (which greatly increases the odds that they're here to promote their stuff, the same as with articles from new contributers about a new public relations, advertising, or herbal viagra business), and no other contributions. The odds just seem tiny that this was created by someone who doesn't profit from this business, or that reasoning with them has any likelihood of turning them into a useful contributor. I would have used A7 if this had been in articlespace, but it wasn't. - Dank (push to talk) 17:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Another question that flows from your post, is whether we honor the namespace issue when, as you assert, the essence of the A7 criterion was a better fit as a deletion basis. This was a proposed article that was sitting unchanged on a subpage for a week before the tagging. I don't mean to throw a question back at you but I'm curious as to your feelings on why, if A7 would have worked better than G11 if it was in the main space, you think we shouldn't use the spirit of the policy to overrule that implicit namespace conflict.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 17:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't know, a lot of our warning messages tell new users to work on stuff in userspace until it's ready ... I think it would be confusing to then delete it from userspace on the grounds that it's not ready yet. But maybe the logic of A7 could or should be applied to namespaces other than userspace, I haven't thought about that. - Dank (push to talk) 20:37, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I love that the company's website is "coming soon" -- deliciously ironic. Yes, the editor is one of the principals (or the only principal)[1]. However, I'm conflicted about db-spam for these types of user pages. Unless there's a reason not to AGF, it might be kinder to blank the page (and watchlist it) and leave the editor a note about how to rewrite their userpage to avoid being promotional. At the same time, I'm fully aware that a huge number of editors who write such a userpage are only here to promote, and lose interest when it becomes clear they can't. And after dealing with the uber-marketers for several hours, "nuke 'em all" does have a certain attraction.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is dominant enough that we could succeed with a wide range of different philosophies (I don't mean that we can sit on our asses, just that leaning one way or another in our wiki-philosophy is not likely to mean the end of the wiki.) We're the top site for information in the world, unless the information you're looking for is lolcat videos or search results. If Wikipedians wanted to be endlessly loving and supportive of all comers, I would do that, and if they wanted to apply strict entrance requirements for new users, I'd support that too (I don't think it would work, but questions like these are not my call). But I think the wikiprojects have made it clear that they want something between those extremes ... they don't want us to be mean, but they do want us to do something to discourage certain new articles and certain new editors. The best I can tell, it's my obligation to delete pages created by new and apparently single-purpose account editors that I think have a 90% or better chance of reflecting WP:COI, and in most (but not all) cases, to do it without being solicitous of the feelings of the page creators, because encouraging them might give them the idea that they can get what they want if they're just persistent enough, and that will waste the time and harm the morale of the wikiprojects and helper-communities that have to deal with these guys. - Dank (push to talk) 20:26, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
FWIW, I have a pretty short fuse when the spammers decide to just be persistent instead of playing by the rules. As the saying goes, "I was born at night, but not last night." :) --Fabrictramp | talk to me 21:58, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
When it comes to tagging probable spam in user subpages, I tend to grant a little more slack, but when it's fairly blatant -- as I thought this was -- I've got few qualms. Note also that db-spam covers CSD G11 -- meaning that it's "General", not just article space.
Stuff that gets my attention:
  • User:Endeavor global/Endeavor (nonprofit) - subpage that matches the name of the account, and both are company names. Obvious.
  • User:Dcheagle/OECW - Use of 1st-person plural ("we"), non-notable nature and advertising copy. Seemingly obvious, but user has some other unrelated edits.
  • User:Solomonchronicles1/The Solomon Chronicles: Sangre del Unico - subpage that matches the name of the account, and describes a product. Fairly strong evidence of spamming.
  • User:Ashleyjared2 - User name and content don't match, and text, while spammy, seems to evidence a good-faith attempt to create an article -- an article that probably wouldn't survive AFD, but that's irrelevant here. Watch and wait.
  • User:Artbodies - vanity bio attached to what appears to be a Googlebombing user name. Leaning towards tagging as spam, but not certain yet.
  • User:Cinagua/Technology Sales Leads - from an editor with a history of creating various subpages and deleted articles on start-ups. Suspicious, but not yet actionable.
That's my take on it. --Calton | Talk 02:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Agreed on the first 3, and I'll wait on the others. Thanks. - Dank (push to talk) 02:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Based on the evidence presented here, deletion was probably appropriate. I don't know if it really should have been a G11 speedy-deletion because the tone was not overly promotional in my opinion but it would have been extremely unlikely to survive an AfD discussion if the article had been moved into the articlespace in that condition. (The lack of active editing would have been evidence against it in an MfD discussion.)
As a technical matter, however, deletion using the A7 criterion would have been definitely inappropriate. A7 is limited to Article-space pages and does not apply to user-space pages. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea that we might want to extend A7 past the articlespace. As Dank said above, userspace is where we tell people to work on drafts that aren't ready for prime time. We ought not to confuse that message.
The problem of spam in the userspace is better handled through the technical solution of breaking the incentive to create it by disabling search engine indexing of the userspace. Rossami (talk) 15:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Nonsense in foreign languages

Earlier today, an administrator declined two consecutive {{db-nonsense}} tags on the grounds that the pages were in a foreign language, therefore exempt from G1. Now I agree with both of that administrator's assessments, but it reminded me of a case, some time ago, where I saw a listing at WP:PNT for a page in French, and, being a native French speaker, I looked at the page and deemed it to be a word salad that was worthy of the speediest G1 tagging. (The words were indeed French, but the sentence was nonsensical.) An administrator declined my tagging of that page, and only after I explained the situation on his talk page did he finally delete the page.

What I want to do here is not exactly a change of policy, new CSD criterion, or anything like that, but I want to implement a way of notifying a CSD-reviewing administrator that a certain foreign-language page has been deemed nonsensical even in its language, either through a template designed for that purpose, a parameter to the {{db-nonsense}} tag, an accompanying tag, or any other solution one might propose.

Any ideas? -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 15:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, this is something I have encountered a few times as well. How about simply using something like: {{db|it's French, but it's still nonsense (G1)}}, or G2 if G1 is not applicable, etc. decltype (talk) 15:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
If you have used, e.g., a {{notenglish|French}} template, you could add {{db-g1}} and just below it {{comment|click "Google translation" in the notenglish template to get an idea.}} The Google translation is usually good enough for that purpose. I have used that technique successfully with obvious NN bios and attack pages. JohnCD (talk) 15:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Good point. However, this works better for A7 and G10 as you mention, because google will have a hard time translating nonsense (and sometimes produces near-nonsense on its own). decltype (talk) 15:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Why not just note it on the talk page? Most admins will check the talk page of a page before deciding on a speedy, in case there is something relevant on it and many taggers use it for that purpose already. I see no need for any changes at all. Regards SoWhy 15:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Maybe a short note, in the description of the A2 criterion, saying what to do when one comes across a foreign-language article that is not an A2 but unquestionably meets another speedy criterion in a way obvious only to one who has some knowledge of the language... -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 16:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
(ec)When someone puts a speedy tag on a foreign language page that I'm looking at for deletion (well, a language I can't muddle through myself), I'll either do a google/babelfish translation to verify or, if it's an experienced non-problematic editor who seems to have some facility with the language I'll ask for a good faith summary from them. If I'm doing the tagging, I add a comment after the speedy tag with a note to see my translation on the talk page.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 15:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
When the issue comes up, I ask taggers politely to add {{notenglish|[language]}} (provided the Google translation that comes with that template is useful) whenever they're requesting speedy deletion. It's going to cause trouble if different people are seeing different things when they're making a speedy call. And btw, I haven't used db-nonsense in a long time because of the nonsense/gibberish language, and I'm not missing it at all. - Dank (push to talk) 15:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
For the record, I'm the administrator referred to above, despite the fact that I'm not actually an administrator. Most of the ideas I had have been given by others, but I do have one idea as to how this could be fixed. {{db-nonsense}} currently reads This does not include poor writing, vandalism, material not in English, badly translated material, hoaxes, etc. This could be changed to This does not include poor writing, vandalism, coherent material not in English, badly translated material, hoaxes, etc., which would solve the problem of foreign-language nonsense being seemingly exempt. — Hysteria18 (Talk • Contributions) 19:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm all for the addition of the word coherent in the description of G1. Anyone else? -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 03:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, this sounds like a reasonable change. decltype (talk) 06:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable to me as well. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
And me. JohnCD (talk) 06:55, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I think it's just adding what was intended anyway, so I went ahead and added it. Regards SoWhy 07:14, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Agree. Incoherent material is G1 speediable, even if it's not English. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Just for the record I support the change as well, even though its already been implemented, SpitfireTally-ho! 11:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the change, though I do also agree that if a person is tagging a non-English page as nonsense because they actually understand the language, they should always make that clear on the talk page or in their edit summary so that the deleting admin knows that the determination was made by someone with the qualifications to make it. I recall that I once speedied a foreign-language page which, for maximum helpfulness, the tagger had actually posted a basic translation to the talk page to demonstrate that it was nonsense — I'm not suggesting that db-tagging editors necessarily always need to go to that length, but it did mean that I was able to provide evidence when somebody asked me the next day why I'd speedied instead of listing it for translation. Bearcat (talk) 18:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

<- I agree with this sentiment, in the rare case of a foreign-language G1, but I'd much prefer specifying this in an edit summary or using an Ø edit, rather than creating a page for this purpose only. Which makes me think: If it's at all translatable, it does not really fall under G1, does it? A1, G2, and G3 may be a better alternative. decltype (talk) 13:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Very probably, yes. However, I can conceive of exceptions. For example The red idiot, when she came before the visible existentialism, but three of the biggest in the morning end is translatable into other languages, but I would think it qualified for G1. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Is there a speedy deletion criterion for uploading an inappropriate image? Bababababababababybel62 (talk) 19:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Depends on what you mean by "inappropriate". Offensive content, while probably ill advised, is not against policy. lifebaka++ 19:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
You'll find the speedy criteria for images at Wikipedia:CSD#Files. If it doesn't meet one of those, it would need to be discussed at Wikipedia:Files for deletion. --Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Religion against sea swimmers

This is an example of the kind of thing I think we we need a "blatantly WP:NFT" speedy for. It's not G1 (incoherent or gibberish), it's not really G3 (misinformation or hoax) which implies actual false statement or intent to deceive, it's not A1, A3 or A7 - but do we really have to give it seven days' exposure before it gets zapped? JohnCD (talk) 13:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a WP:CSD#G3. Wikipedia:Vandalism includes under types of vandalism "silly vandalism": "Adding profanity, graffiti, random characters (gibberish), or other nonsense to pages; creating nonsensical and obviously non-encyclopedic pages, etc." This is an obviously non-encyclopedic page. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:15, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
That's useful, but I don't think WP:CSD#G3 as written really covers it. Perhaps the phrase "nonsensical and obviously non-encyclopedic pages" from Wikipedia:Vandalism could be added to the definition of G3? JohnCD (talk) 13:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I think your choice to PROD-delete the page was entirely appropriate. That said, I agree with Moonriddengirl that a good case could be made for vandalism. Expanding NFT into a new CSD criterion, on the other hand, opens up too much interpretation and potential misuse. Rossami (talk) 13:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm with you there. I apply that one with kid gloves, as I think it should only be done for the most blatant and obvious cases. I've seen good faith articles deleted as hoaxes, for instance, that have turned out to be not hoaxes. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't see any problem as far as this article is concerned: it seems to me that it is clearly vandalism, and I have accordingly tagged it for speedy deletion. G3 covers all vandalism, not just vandalism containing "misinformation or hoax". My reading of "This includes blatant and obvious misinformation, redirects created by cleanup from page-move vandalism, and blatant hoaxes" is that vandalism includes, but is not restricted to these: am I wrong? As for the more general question about a new CSD criterion for NFT, I can see pros and cons, but on the whole I think the most unambiguous cases (like this one) would probably qualify as vandalism anyway. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't think you're wrong, obviously. I would have deleted it myself except that it is under discussion. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:54, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Hmm. Well, evidently it is not universally agreed that this is vandalism. My speedy proposal has been declined with edit summary Decline speedy - something that is made up certainly exists. I find this odd: not existing is not the only reason for regarding something as vandalism. JamesBWatson (talk) 14:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I declined that speedy. The problem with vandalism is that it carries an implication of bad faith, i.e. that deleting something as vandalism accuses the creator of having wanted to disrupt Wikipedia. That's usually not the case when people simply make stuff up and want to use Wikipedia to spread it and where they admit that the content is made up. Vandalism or blatant hoax requires imho that the creator wants to claim something to be true that isn't with the intent to disrupt Wikipedia and/or mislead people. On the other hand, we do have a policy regarding those things made up, i.e. WP:MADEUP. As part of WP:NOT, WP:CSD#Non-criteria clearly excludes it as a possible reason for speedy deletion. If we intent to speedy delete such articles (which I might even support), we need to create a new criterion to cover it (not make it part of G1 or G3 which both carry an accusation of bad faith) but than we need consensus for it first. Regards SoWhy 14:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
As I indicated above, WP:Vandalism explicitly identifies as vandalism creating "obviously non-encyclopedic pages." To me, this article does indeed seems like "a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia", which is already covered under G3, but respect that you do not. I don't see how any contributor old enough to have been here since 2006 (as this article's creator was) might perceive "I propose that Jon Hardcastle starts a facebook group to push his agenda" as a constructive addition to the project; it seems like misguided humor. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:17, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, I see what SoWhy means, but evidently we have very different interpretations of "bad faith". I see making up nonsense and writing up a Wikipedia article on it as quite definitely exhibiting "the intent to disrupt Wikipedia". JamesBWatson (talk) 14:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I may have been tempted to push the boundaries very slightly and delete this under A7 as an organisation that doesn't assert significance. But yes, in general it would be nice to have a criterion we can use for things that are blatantly unencyclopedic but are made in good faith through a misunderstanding of Wikipedia. That said, despite some pondering I can't think of a good wording for it that wouldn't excessively increase the scope of CSD. ~ mazca talk 14:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I just deleted it under the good ol' IAR criterion. Coming up with a criterion to describe that deletion might be fun. -GTBacchus(talk) 15:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

One idea: introduce a criterion for things that assert insignificance, along the lines of A7 (which covers articles that don't contain an assertion of significance). An article which effectively states "this was just made up" is asserting insignificance. Hut 8.5 19:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

It won't come up often, right? Most people who are making something up don't type, "I'm making this up as I type it..." However, when they do, that's a gift, and we may certainly accept it. We can give it a name and code number if we like, but it's a rare gift, so we won't use such a code very much.

It reminds me of the vandal, again very uncommon, who says this. I didn't hesitate to block that guy, nor to identify the reason as "vandalism". -GTBacchus(talk) 20:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

One of the drawbacks of using CSD:G3 on such articles is that calling something "vandalism" assumes bad faith. I wouldn't oppose a new CSD criterion for subjects that are "blatantly unverifiable" (ie an AGF variant of G3) but right now the best way to handle such cases is to take them to AFD but allow such debates to be closed early if it quickly becomes clear that other participants can't verify the subject either. That way if a newbie creates an article about a game played at their school but nobody else outside the school has ever heard of or a made up word, it can be quickly deleted without calling the newbie a vandal. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree that there's no reason to apply the v-word to anyone who doesn't claim it on their own. I wish our drop-down lists of reasons to block said "apparent vandalism" instead of "vandalism". The latter label involves a mind-reading claim that I generally don't feel comfortable making. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:01, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Suggestions of a speedy for things "Blatantly made up one day" are often answered by saying that anything bad enough to need speedy deletion will be covered by G3. This example shows that isn't so, because of a feeling that G3/Vandalism implies an accusation of bad faith or malice and should not be applied to mere frivolity or silliness. How about expanding G3 by importing words from WP:Vandalism to read:

Pure vandalism or silliness. This includes blatant and obvious misinformation, redirects created by cleanup from page-move vandalism, blatant hoaxes and nonsensical and obviously non-encyclopedic pages.

That would avoid inventing a new CSD, and would make explicit what some people evidently already consider to be the case, that G3 can be used for these cases without necessarily implying bad faith. Warning messages might need modification, though the standard {{Db-vandalism-notice}} "Please refrain from introducing inappropriate pages" would still be appropriate. JohnCD (talk) 09:01, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
That would still carry that accusation. I would rather propose a new criterion (A10) that covers such and especially other articles that are about madeup things that are not silliness, something like this:

An article that seeks to promote a subject that is clearly made up by the article's creator and which does not indicate why its subject might be important or significant. The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source. If the claim's credibility is unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion.

That way, we can lose the bad faith accusation, limit it to a small subset of madeup things and still get rid of things people want to promote using Wikipedia that fail G3, G11 or A7. Regards SoWhy 09:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I really like that wording. I agree that we should isolate G3 to solely apparent-bad-faith creations; this A10 is a good suggestion in my view. ~ mazca talk 22:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Just to note that it wouldn't have worked for this article without some IARing, as it wasn't made up by the article's creator who self-identified as someone other than the inventor, when he said "I propose that Jon Hardcastle [the inventor] starts a facebook group to push his agenda". --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:52, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Not a good ideaI can think of several different criteria, without using iAR. One is that reliable, test page, another is A7, judging that the articles is actually about John H. , and a third, which i would have used, is no context, because I cannot figure out what the article is actually talking about. But I say this after a g-check, because it was after all possible that this was an allusion to something real that O simply didn't know about. That's why speedy for these things is not good idea. The proof of this is that there have been a number of things prodded for "made up one day" that are deprodded and survive. Sometimes they turn out to be real childhood or drinking games--2 eds in, say, the US, will not likely recognize one from Australia.! (and similarly with drinks and foods ).DGG (talk) 00:26, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I can't see "clearly made up by the article's creator" working at all. Unless the article says that it is made up by the article's creator, how on earth can we ever tell that it is? How can you distinguish a load of rubbish I make up and put in an article from a load of rubbish that my brother makes up and I put in an article?

However, I'm not sure that "what is the best wording for the proposed new rule?" is the right question: I think the question should be "is there a need for a new rule at all?". I am genuinely amazed to find that several contributors to this discussion do not regard a decision to deliberately put silly and frivolous material into Wikipedia as constituting bad faith, but, granted that that is the case, so that "vandalism" is out, there still seem to me to be other usable criteria. Firstly, DGG suggests A7 could be used, and I agree. Mazca says "I may have been tempted to push the boundaries very slightly and delete this under A7", but I don't see that any boundary pushing is needed: the article did not assert significance, and the article purported to be about an an organization, as it referred to named people who were supposed to organise the religion. I also see no problem with DGG's suggestion of using A1 (no context). The article threw names of people at us with no indication of who they were, and gave no indication as to when or where or under what circumstances the pretended religion was founded: I think there was no context given. In my opinion the fundamental problem here is trying to apply rules too rigidly. Whatever rules we have, and however we phrase them, there will be cases which, if we argue about the exact details of how to interpret the rules, will not be covered by them. If each time we come across such a case we sit around and discuss how to make a new rule (or modify an existing one) to cover it, we will not reduce the tendency for such awkward cases to arise, and we will make Wikipedia more awkward and cumbersome, more difficult to use, easier for people to twist around by finding some interpretation of some rule which fits their purpose. We all know that this article was so obviously rubbish that it needed to be deleted, and I would be prepared to bet that all or almost all of us would agree that it should have been speedily deleted (As expressed so succinctly by GTBacchus: "If there isn't a speedy criterion that covers this, it's just because we haven't written it down yet". We should not forget the fifth of the five pillars: Wikipedia does not have firm rules besides the five general principles presented here. Be bold in editing, moving, and modifying articles. If we all always remembered that, then we would not be wasting our time on this discussion: the criteria for deletion, like all Wikipedia policies and guidelines, are flexible, broad suggestions rather than exact rules, and it really is not worth arguing about whether this case exactly fits the letter of G3, A1, or A7. It clearly needs to be speedily deleted, and as long as it comes reasonably near to one or more of them, that is good enough: the article goes.

Finally, of the comments above which favour introducing a new criterion, the one with which I have most sympathy is mazca's in general it would be nice to have a criterion we can use for things that are blatantly unencyclopedic but are made in good faith through a misunderstanding of Wikipedia. Yes, it would be nice. However, in practice I think it would be impossible to make it have that effect without making it so broad as to create more problems than it would solve. Can you just imagine some of the things which would be seen by some people as unencyclopedic and as based on misunderstanding of Wikipedia? JamesBWatson (talk) 03:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I, too, am uncomfortable with the direction this conversation is going. I do not think that this proposal for a new criterion meets requirements 1, 3 or 4 at the top of this page. In reverse order, I do not think that it is unique - a strong case could be made that it was clearly identifiable vandalism. The page did not appear to me to be a good-faith effort. I do not think that this situation occurs frequently enough to justify yet another CSD to keep straight. And I have yet to see proposed wording that will be sufficiently objective to be feasible. "Blatently unencyclopedic" is far too vague these days. I don't think we need a new case for speedy-deletion. Rossami (talk) 06:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
As the originator of this conversation, I agree with GTBacchus (as quoted by JBW above) that "If there isn't a speedy criterion that covers this, it's just because we haven't written it down yet", and that's what I was trying to do; but there is evidently no consensus for a new speedy or for extending the scope of an existing one. However, I must say that I am unconvinced by the arguments that any of the existing criteria apply. Taggers are constantly urged (e.g. WP:WIHSD#Why the Criteria are So Strict) to be accurate and pay close attention to the CSD definitions, and here:
  • G1 - it was not incoherent or gibberish
  • G2 - test page - the least clearly-defined criterion, but counsel for the defence could convincingly argue that this author was not "just testing" but intended to post the article
  • G3 - it was frivolous, maybe, but not malicious or posted with intent to disrupt, nor was it "misinformation"
  • A1 - explicitly applies only to "very short articles" and, though this article was pretty muddled, the context in these NFT articles is usually clear enough
  • A7 - it's a stretch to say this was about "an organization" when the new "religion" contains only its founder, and many of these articles are about a newly-invented word or game; nor was it about a person, only about his idea
JamesBWatson says don't worry, use IAR: that may be OK for an admin deciding to delete, but I don't think a tagger using IAR to justify applying speedy tags outside the definition would get much support. After reading all the above, I would still not feel able to do anything for another article like this but PROD it and hope that, before the author or one of our serial deprodders sends it on to AfD, an admin sees it and deletes it per IAR. JohnCD (talk) 09:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Before I became an admin there were a few potential IAR situations where I went to admins who I suspected to be online or have multiple talk page stalkers and asked how best to tag something. Providing the article obviously should be speedy deleted and obviously doesn't fit the criteria, I'd recommend that route. ϢereSpielChequers 12:10, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
"G3 - it was frivolous, maybe, but not malicious or posted with intent to disrupt, nor was it "misinformation"" Out of my curiosity, how do you know it was not posted with intent to disrupt? :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't know, but the author didn't have a record of vandalism or any previous warnings, and my AGF assumption is that he didn't know what Wikipedia is really about, and had something he thought was funny and wanted to share with the world. JohnCD (talk) 13:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I suppose that is true: that would not really be malicious. It had seemed obvious to me that nobody could think this was appropriate, but put like that I can see someone might. JohnCD has evidently a more skillful AGFer than I am. JamesBWatson (talk) 19:19, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
John is correct. We (I don't except myself) often forget that not everyone, especially newbies, knows about even our basic rules and fundamental principles and will think "anyone can edit" means "anything can be added". Hence my wariness to label things as vandalism where it's not crystal clear. Regards SoWhy 19:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I wish G1 were available for this article. (IMO G1 isn't available because we haven't defined it that way, but also because I'm not going to accuse someone of talking "nonsense" and "gibberish", ever.) Having a 7-day discussion sends the message that we're not really sure whether it's appropriate for WP or not and we don't mind having it hang around a while while we figure it out. That was acceptable when WP was a goofy, cool new project; it doesn't seem appropriate, to me, when we're the most commonly used information source on the net. It's not inappropriate to act respectable and require some basic respect. We don't have to be mean about it, we can leave a nice note on the creator's talk page, but we should be firm and swift. - Dank (push to talk) 20:39, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I have traditionally modified the deletion summary for articles I've deleted as blatantly inappropriate where the contributor might have been playing around. I haven't been that active at CSD since I took up at CP, but there's Rachel joy and Bob kovachick, for instance. In the latter case, I left the standard warning, User talk:Adam Striar, which still seems appropriate to me. In the former, I kind of felt that the nonsense tag already left was good enough. :) It got the point across. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Licensing update: reminder

Hi. Yesterday an admin cleared a newly created article of copyright infringement because the source from which it was imported is licensed under GFDL. This matter was addressed with the specific admin, but I just figured it might be a good idea to remind everyone that we can no longer accept material that is solely licensed under GFDL. At minimum, it must be compatible with CC-By-SA, and GFDL is not. (See Wikimedia:Terms of Use.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

For clarity, can anyone say in what way GFDL is not compatible with CC-By-SA? There must be somewhere on WP where this is spelled out, perhaps someone can give a link? JamesBWatson (talk) 14:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Comparison of GFDL and CC-BY-SA may help. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:22, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
GFDL requires reprinting the GFDL; CC-BY-SA requires linking to the CC-BY-SA. Neither license allows any modifications. Stifle (talk) 08:14, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Following from the discussion on separation between deleter and tagger

The essay is drafted at User:S Marshall/Essay2.—S Marshall Talk/Cont 17:01, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

What I don't see is useful discussion of reasonable exceptions. For instance, most days, I see promotional material that's scattered across more than one page when only one page has been tagged, because I'm checking contribs. It would make no sense to tag rather than delete the untagged pages; that forces other admins to read the pages that I've just read and come to the same conclusion, and the message (if any) it sends to the page creator is: you can beat the system if you create enough copies, because I'm not allowed to delete untagged pages.
Bottom line: various reasonable exceptions to the idea of never-delete-without-a-tag were pointed out in previous discussions, and I'm not seeing any acknowledgment that there are reasonable exceptions, so this proposal doesn't seem to be going anywhere at the moment. - Dank (push to talk) 13:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Tisn't a proposal, it didn't gain enough support for that. It's a user-space essay.

I don't see that there are any cases where promotional material is directly harmful to Wikipedia, and nor do I see it as unreasonable to suggest that two pairs of eyes should be involved in such a deletion. I do realise it's inconvenient to those who're accustomed to going through Wikipedia deleting large tranches of material on their own authority, and I'm afraid that's exactly what I intended.—S Marshall Talk/Cont 15:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

When I see that people in a certain discussion are talking past each other rather than engaging each other, that's usually a sign that my continued involvement isn't going to be helpful. I didn't say anything about roaming around the wiki looking for pages to delete, and you're mischaracterizing my argument; that isn't helpful. I'm talking about looking at the contributions of creators of tagged pages and deleting multiple copies of the same promotional material. - Dank (push to talk) 16:09, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, I'm reluctant to go into a detailed description of all the possible exceptions, because I'll end up with an essay that's past the length people will read. I'll add a couple of sentences to see if I can close off this concern and similar ones.—S Marshall Talk/Cont 17:04, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I have a response, but I'm leery of trying to set policy mano-a-mano. Suggestions, anyone? - Dank (push to talk) 17:16, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Whoa, none of this is policy! It's a userspace essay. When there's been a sufficient amount of consideration, I hope it'll become a mainspace essay, but I don't imagine it'll be a guideline in the foreseeable future.

You are welcome to edit the essay, Dank, even though it's in my userspace, and so is anyone else. It's not my intention to close off discussion, though I shall certainly continue to push for what I see as a commonsense result.—S Marshall Talk/Cont 17:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Mojo-hustla

Xeno has an objection that some standard links in cases of db-spam and near-db-spam are inappropriate, so I edited WP:WHYNOT, and I'm including that link in some cases where I speedy userpages and articles. It's intended to be a lot shorter (new contributors are rarely willing to read long pages) and a little more helpful and AGF'ing than WP:ADS, WP:PROMO and WP:COI (although it links to COI). Suggestions welcome. - Dank (push to talk) 18:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I fully agree with your aim of shortening and AGFing. At a quick glance what you have done looks good. JamesBWatson (talk) 18:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] db-spam: questionable choice of name

Reading some very good comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Mojo-hustla led me to think carefully about the way we refer to "spam" in Wikipedia, and I found I was not happy about it. I myself have in the past tended to use the word "spam" rather freely in edit summaries, but I now think this is a mistake. There are many people who run perfectly respectful businesses, and would not dream of using spam in the real world, who come to Wikipedia, and, with the best of intentions, place publicity material here. Of course this reflects a failure to understand the nature of Wikipedia, but they are doing nothing which would be regarded as reprehensible in normal business practice. And what happens? They find themselves labelled as spammers. This does not give them a friendly welcome to Wikipedia, it does not assume good faith, and by seeming like an aggressive accusation it is not likely to encourrage them to take a cooperative line. I wonder whether the word "spam" should be removed altogether from Wikipedia: "db-spam" could perhaps be replaced with something like "db-promo". Likewise Wikipedia:Spam could be Wikipedia:PROMO, which at present is a redirect to a section of Wikipedia:Spam. I am also posting this comment to Wikipedia talk:Spam, as it is equally relevant there. I suggest if anyone has any response to offer that they should make it there rather than here: it would not be helpful having two discussions on the same topic. JamesBWatson (talk) 19:14, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Well put. - Dank (push to talk) 19:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree. Henceforward we should write all edit summaries in Newspeak to avoid harming the fragile self-esteem of our valued spammer community. Doubleplusgood suggestion. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I shall copy that ironic comment to Wikipedia talk:Spam and answer it there. JamesBWatson (talk) 19:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Criterion A7

Could someone more knowledgeable on the policy clarify what is meant by "credible claim of significance or importance" in A7? Does this mean claims of meeting one of the notability guidelines, or does any credible claim of importance go? I'm confused because an article, Lewis The First, was deleted under A7 despite stating that that the subject had "gained a great following" and had "hit songs". The rationale was "No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion". Is this appropriate use of A7? I'm mostly asking to clarify any misunderstandings I might have about the policy. The article probably would have been deleted anyway for not meeting WP:MUSICBIO. Thanks, Jafeluv (talk) 22:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:Reliable sources are the only sources that establish notability, so "significance" can't mean "importance as defined by the person who wrote this article", because we don't care about that; it has to have something to do with the likelihood that some part of the article will eventually be useful on Wikipedia, maybe on another page, maybe after sources are found. This is a much lower bar than notability, the proof of which requires reliable sources, right here, right now. - Dank (push to talk) 22:26, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Also ... we don't want to argue CSD policy in general based on what happens to band articles; they're exceptional in several ways. - Dank (push to talk) 22:28, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Both "great following" and "hit songs" are very subjective words that can mean anything from "20 people saw us play last night!" to "tickets sell at $200 and all 50,000 seats are sold-out months in advance". Generally, importance/significance is assumed if the claim is anything objective, like being signed to a notable label, being associated with a notable musician, having a notable member, having the music used on something notable (TV ad, show, series etc.) I compiled some indications I think are enough at User:SoWhy/Common A7 mistakes#Organisations but there is no general rule as to when a claim exists and/or is credible. I'm a very strict CSD admin but even I would have A7ed that article probably. Regards SoWhy 22:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for the clarification. Jafeluv (talk) 22:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion"
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